[CR]About Schwinn Paramounts - P13 versus P15 , P10

(Example: Humor:John Pergolizzi)

From: "Raoul Delmare" <R.Delmare@Charter.net>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <RDF1249@aol.com>
References: <1db.1019e97.2b67722a@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:17:32 -0600
cc: "Bruce C." <BruceCumbe@aol.com>
Subject: [CR]About Schwinn Paramounts - P13 versus P15 , P10

Lou Deeter wrote :
> > >
> > >I sure didn't know that Schwinn ever did anything like building a rear
> > rack
> > >into the frame. Can this really be a Paramount? 23" frame. Lou Deeter,
> > >Orlando FL

Raoul Delmare wrote :
> >
> > Can't honestly say whether it was originally a model P13 Deluxe
> > Paramount Road Racer ( all of the Paramount Road Racers from that era were
> > 10-speeds ) , or a model P15 Deluxe Paramount Touring 15-speed .
> >
> > Looking at the photograph in the 1970 Schwinn consumer catalog , frames
> > of those two models seem identical . In later years , it would be easy to
> > spot the differences between the Road Racer , and the Touring . But ,
> > until 1972 , the frames were identical ( as far as I know ) .

Bob Freeman wrote :
> I agree that that is most likely a P-13 with the added rack. Two things give
> it away: The lack of brake housing stops on the top tube which all P10/P15
> frames that I have seen had, and the relatively short chainstays. Of course,
> whoever modified the frame could have "shaved" the brake housing stops. If
> I could see the height of the brake bridge that would confirm it. The P13
> would take 700C wheels and Campy brakes out of the box. The P10/P15 would
> take Campy brakes only with 27" wheels and a drop bolt in the rear. The rack
> looks to me like it might have been made by Sam Braxton (now deceased) of
> Braxton's bikes in Missoula. Very much his style.
> Bob Freeman
> Seattle
> '62 P-10, '72 P-13, '73 P-15, '65 Track Paramounts.

Raoul Delmare writes :

Hi Bob ,

Ya got me . Big "ooops" on my part .

I goofed up on the brake clearance issue . I thought about mentioning brake clearances to the seller . I looked hard at the photos on eBay to see if I could tell whether or not the seat stay bridge ( rear brake bridge ) had been replaced . I couldn't quite see whether or not it was drilled for a brake . Of course , the front clearance should still be un-molested , regardless of what might have been done to the seat stay bridge . But , then again , the differences are much smaller at the front . Anyway , I thought it would be too much trouble to attempt to describe brake clearances & wheel sizes , to someone who knew very little about bicycles . Then I got tired and sloppy and used the word "identical" . Sorry about that . Yes , besides paying for an historical-genealogy-background-check , done by Waterford Precision Cycles , the wheel-size / brake-clearance dimension , would be a revealing feature .

HOWEVER , about the brazed-on brake cable guides / housing stops . . . I'm afraid that this one is NOT a clearly determining feature . Lot's of folks think what was true in 1972 , and later . . . was also true farther back in time . I too used to think you could tell , by using those brazed-on guides/stops . I even missed out on buying a really spectacular P13 , because I thought that having those little things meant it wasn't a genuine P13 ! I'm still kicking myself about that one ! I have my 1965 Schwinn Consumer Catalog , inches away from my hand . I just checked again . There is a photo of a Flamboyant Red "P13 Deluxe Paramount Road Racer" , with those very same little brazed-on , top tube , guides/stops . I have my 1968 Schwinn Consumer Catalog , inches away . I just checked again . There is a photo of a Campus Green ( another Flamboyant / Radiant color ) "P13 Deluxe Paramount" . It's the same thing on this one also . The P13 has those same little brazed-on , top tube , brake cable guides / housing stops . I have my 1971 Schwinn Consumer Catalog right here , just checked again . There's a photo of a Kool Lemon "P13-9 Professional Road Racing Paramount" . Darn it!! Can't tell a thing about brake cable routing from that photo!! Either the photo has been "re-touched" , or it was shot from just the wrong angle . My theory ? They were getting ready for the changes which I KNOW were true on the 1972 P13 Paramounts . My **1972** Schwinn Consumer Catalog shows the P13 that we all know and love ! It's a Campus Green "P13-9 Professional Road Racing Paramount" . It clearly has three ( 3 ) chrome plated , clamp-on , brake cable housing clips !!! ( Campagnolo , we assume , even though the bicycle in the photo has Weinmann center-pull brakes )

**NOTE - About the other feature you can see at a glance . That **1972** photo clearly shows the distinctive P13 fork rake . The 1971 , and 1968 , and 1965 , consumer catalogs ALL clearly show that the P13 Road Racer had the same old fork rake as the Touring models ( sharper bend , lower down , more total rake ) .

**NOTE - About chain stays . I just went and re-measured my 24-inch 1972 P13 Deluxe Road Racer ( thanks Harvey! ) , and my 24-inch 1973 P10 Deluxe Touring . We are talking about almost exactly a 3/8 of an inch difference in chain stay length . That's not much . I also measured my 24-inch 1966 P12 Road Racer ( not a Deluxe ) . The 1966 P12 Road Racer has the same longer chain stays as the Touring . Which , although it does not prove anything , leads me to think the older P13 Deluxe Road Racers probably had the very same chain stays as the Touring Paramounts .

**NOTE - About eyelets on the drop-outs , of the P13 Road Racers . In many of the photos , it's hard to determine . However , the photo in my 1968 consumer catalog clearly shows that the P13 had the same eyelets as the Touring Paramounts . Also , I've seen several examples of pre-1972 P13 Road Racing Paramounts , with eyelets on the drop-outs . My 1966 P12 Road Racer has eyelets on the drop-outs .

**NOTE - As the Schwinn fanatics all know ( just ask one a them Sting-Ray fanatics ! ) the Schwinn Consumer Catalogs were out of date , by the time they left the print shop . The photos were all taken the summer before the year they were supposed to be "from" . There are many mistakes in the consumer catalogs about which colors were offered for which years . So , if something shows up two years in a row , or more , you can be pretty darn certain about it . But , if you are trying to determine the exact timing for some change , it can be difficult .

**NOTE - About what to call the P13 . Sometimes Schwinn called it the "Deluxe Paramount Road Racer" . Sometimes it was the "Deluxe Paramount" ( but sometimes the P15 was the "Deluxe Paramount" ) . Or it could be the "Professional Road Racing Paramount" . Long after the basic P12 had been forgotten , Schwinn called the P13 the "Road Racing Paramount" . And then of course , sometimes it was the P13-9 . I've decided I'm just going to call them all P13 Road Racers . You're on your own here .

So , what about a 1970 consumer catalog ? I don't own one from 1970 . But , you can find photos from one at : http://www.geocities.com/sldatabook/detail6064.html It's not the very best scan of a color photo that I've ever seen . But , it is BIG ! There is no doubt that it's a 1970 catalog . The caption makes much of the "Diamond Jubilee Paramount" ( the Dealer Catalog did the same ) . The photo very clearly shows the White "P13-9 Professional Road Racing Paramount" with the brazed-on , top tube , brake cable guides / housing stops . It is also a BEAUTIFUL photograph of the LONG FORK RAKE ( Touring style ) , on a P13 Deluxe Road Racing Paramount !!

So , one thing we know for certain , that Paramount on eBay , with the added brazed-on rear rack , originally had brazed-on , top tube , cable guides/stops ( unless they were willing to leave them off of custom Paramounts , and this one was originally a rare custom Paramount ) .

What about the P13 "style" that so many folks are all crazy about ? I can tell you that the 1970 P13 Road Racing Paramount , and earlier P13 Road Racing Paramounts , had the same fork rake , the same cable guides/stops on the top tube , the same eyelets on the drop-outs , and probably the same chain stay length , as the Touring Paramounts . If you take a 1970 or earlier P13 , and strip it down to bare frame and front fork , you can't tell by merely looking , whether or not it's a P13 . However , I can tell you that the 1972 P13 Road Racing Paramounts had the unique P13 "style" , with the short rake & ever-so-graceful bend of the fork blades , no brazed-on top tube cable guides , no eyelets on the drop-outs , and shorter chain stays . Take a 1972 through 1979 , P13 Road Racer , strip it down to the bare frame and front fork , you'll still be able to tell at a glance that it's a P13 .

What about 1971 ? I just don't know . The 1971 catalog photo shows what may have been a model in transition . Of course , that photo was taken in 1970 , and it may have been "re-touched" . I'd love to see some examples of Paramounts , lined up by serial numbers , from the different months of the years 1970 , 1971 , & 1972 . Then we could see exactly when they changed what features . Anyone have 36 individual P13 Paramount Road Racers , from Jan. 1970 , through Dec. 1972 ? ?

However , That seat stay bridge ( rear brake bridge ) , on a pre-1972 Paramount ( assuming that you are looking at a production Paramount , not a custom Paramount , and that it has not been modified later ) would be the big , easy , telling , feature to look for . The Touring Paramounts had bigger clearances , no doubt about it !

Raoul Delmare
Marysville Kansas