hey Alan & List(less)ers,
I thought for a moment Dale changed his name to Craig (just eff-ing wit youse). 'Suppwiddatt?
Montagner. I like 'em. I had one and bought another one for a friend.
The one I had was similar to the catalogue scan on that legend Bulgier's site. Tubing was oria with very slight longitudional ribs, barely visible (which is nice) and 80's paint style that just might now be vogue in Tirana, Albania .... (hey I been there .... long story). It had Gippieme ends which if I may be so bold to say where the same as Campy were buying and having stamped with their digits and lotsa nice chrome with a very nice sloping Cinelli-esque crown and beefy bottom bracket. I later learnt it was all chrome beneath and was planning to let it shine but then thought it better to leave it intact as there weren't many about and sold it off for smaller coin than the bike should merit .... but we have all been in that place with many a bike.
Impressions - I loved the ride and thought it just right in terms of liveliness and alacrity. If I had to choose the best ride qualities of one bike this would be it but this is a subjective thing and I agree that rider weight, wheels and tires have a lot to do with this. Seemed pretty light to me but I never weighed anything back then unless it was a controlled substance. Perhaps on par with SL, maybe lighter. Took a 26.4mm seat post and had a decal on the top tube espousing the W/Record time for the 4km team time trial by Czech national team at the World Championships in Colorado Springs in 1984(?). I didn't know the 4km TTT was such a prestigious event but the backing of the decal had the 'isssimo or Gay Pride stripes. Decals were black and with no clear coat (ala Pinarello) both them and the paint did heir best to seek freedom. Panto'd frok crown, seat stay ends and bottom bracket. Braze ons for shifters, BB cable guides underneath, rh chainstay cable stop and top tube brake cable loops. Kinda inauspicious head tube decal for an Italian Bici. I would have said about 1985.
Roll on a few years (ed. - rehab?) - A mate was itching for a Italian bike like I had found for others. I landed him a sweet Montagner with a mix of Victory, Shimano 600, Cinelli and nice campy rims for $250 and that included shipping. This one looked a little later .... and if guessing I'd say ca. 1987 going by parts and je nais se quois stuff. I'm pretty sure it had SLX tubing (maybe SL) and it had improved paint style and quality but only slightly, still with fade's but now with that Lattice style criss-cross segue or transition from a dark red to silver. Nice looking frame, well executed and finished and the imperative God Bless Chrome that still afflicts my heart and tastes. This bike had been ridden very little and I only took it out for a perfunctory spin to make sure my mate wouldn't end up in hospital but it seemed Luigi knew what he was doing and again he produced a bike with life and all the qualities one would expect of a tool built for racing with. Confirmed what I first thought - these are very nice bikes and perhaps we all buy into the hype of the glamour bikes with higher profiles too much.
There was a guy on this list whose name I cannot recall, but he was at the World Championships in Colorado Springs back in the 80's. In fact his mother was the host for the Czech team and he got to meet all the riders, check all their bikes and has photo's and fond memories of the time. Perhaps he may now writing his much awaited memoirs titled "The Full Montagner". In any case, said "guy" if you are reading this I am sorry I have forgotten perhaps the most important part of our e-meeting - your name. If anyone could chime in on more details, you could.
Oria tubing is (if I read correctly) sourced from Manesmann (just like Columbus?). And either they draw it to spec. or order it as such (I can hear the engineer types whose wives wish for some romance laughing hard now). It was cheaper than say Columbus SL and made it's way onto quite a few bikes where a cheaper price point was an issue. Same as we see nicely finished bikes with great paint and chrome but with Aelle tubing and wonder Why the pomp and ceremony, but in reality a nicely made and finished bike with "lesser or cheaper" tubing was one way to impress for less from a buyer's perspective and in my experience didn't make much of a difference or in fact produced a pleasing and perhaps longer lasting result. BTW Oria tubing decals are ugly (if they ever remained).
So, that's about all I know of Montagner and Oria. I'm pretty sure I might have a few pics of my frame and my mates bike somewhere on my hard drive. I can't recall where or what I filed them under but when I went looking I got sidetracked with a long forgotten file containing my prior ambitions to be a staff photographer for Wicked Weasel. Anyway, e-me and i'll send you the pics .... of the Montagner's that is ;)
PART DEUX - the sorry part :(
I beseach you wise cats and knowledgeable types to perhaps throw some light on a frame I had asked about here in trying to identify it. Alas, the kind soul he probably is, Donald Gillies was the only man (I use that term implicitly) to come forth with some musings and slight conjecture. Like 2 souls lost in a leaky boat amongst an ocean of freighters containing that M word & some Single's Chat Zone in 'frisco zipping past us, we are now seething at each other and well meaning discussion has progressed to what would be violence if we weren't seperated by a not inconsiderable ocean and cable that connects us is being tapped by the CIA to accumulate evidence as to why/what for Kamen became Kamenjas .... It's Ok - i'd been wanting an all expenses paid Carribean Holiday. But, I digress .....
The now sharp and pointed bone of contention between me and Don's is the unusual to us both roller wheel guides for derailleur cable routing brazed to the frame's BB. Donald hypothesized that perhaps the frame I adore started life as a three speed SA affair, and perhaps the second roller was brazed on if the bike was up-specced(?) to a new life as a 10 speed. He contends that many a fine tubed and lugged example of SA equipped bike has a similar roller for shifter cable routing. I, being a TV baby and insecure about my knowledge of older style bikes and appreciation of Sturmey Archer (P. Kohler hates me now too), took that as an spiteful attack bringing accusations of bastardry to my erstwhile beautiful english style frameset without history or recognizable provenance. I'm sick, huh? Yes Im tetchy, but what do I do when the in the dark quiet hours of the morning I hear the frame weeping "where do I come from?" and suffer the guilt of not being able to soothe and bring answers to the troubled steel.
I should have been in praise of Donald's effort to respond to my questions and end my suffering of not knowing where my frame came from but like a cat backed against a wall I vociferously countered that the the campy dropouts with derailleur tab seemed original and that it was unlike the local brazers and builders here (who usually fell into that employ after their preferred vocation of becoming a butcher or sheep shearer failed to transpire) would not have matched, finished and executed the change so gracefully or saw the point in terms of time and money when a new frame could be bought for less. I figure this frame is from O/seas, probably Eng-erland and with Nervex Pro lugs, svelte seat stays, what is to me quite light tubing (531?), it is a good bet. Local frames were very nice, and far cheaper than anything imported during that era but from asking around here the general consensus is that with imported frames being so costly it was only the high end, full derailleured bikes that made it over and worthwhile.
Yes, it's a shame to bring the news of Don's and mine's bad blood here but I apportion blame and hold all of ye accountable for not coming forward with regard to this frameset in the first place. I know that Donald is a gentleman and most helpful but perhaps he failed to appreciate that I never said I was without flaw and still remain one of God's children. Perhaps Donald also never knew that I was bigger than him, much uglier and afraid of nothing save for an empty fridge the fact that Angelina Jolie must have misplaced my tel #. Yes it's childish ......... but He started it!
C'mon cool cats, lead us into brotherhood again and weigh in my bit of steel so that I don't change religions and issue a Fatwa on all 'yer asses in this time of conviviality and season of festivities. Oh, and I promise the frame won't be on Ebay or Craigslist within a week ;) ... I also promise not to write so much crap again.
aforementioned frame details and pics;
> what is this bike?
>
> Curio # 2 is a frame I have asked everyone local here about and nobody
> has any firm clues to whose it may be. Most think it came from the UK
> ...... Nervex Pro Lugs, 65 S 47 stamped on the BB and fork steerer,
> roller guides for derailleur cable routing on the BB shell, pencil
> stays and a seat stay caps that are svelte. I don't think paint is
> original. Only other braze-ons apart from the roller guides is brake
> cable stops/guides on the top tube (2), lower right side and the cable
> stop on the right rear chainstay. Also, very slight bulge on the
> front of headtube right underneath the top lug - how would that happen
> when all else is straight, fork is original and steerer is without
> mar, and it sits below where the headset cup stops? No cracks, no
> dimples, no dents anywhere else. Or am I seeing things? Nice frame and
> I'm curious to find out what it may be. At first glance I thought it
> was a Raleigh International but it differs from any I have seen, and
> isn't. English threading, graceful fork curve, campy dropouts, 43.5 cm
> stays (to centre of rear drop out), seat tube diameter for a 27mm
> post, very light ..... what say ye?
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/
> http://homepage.mac.com/
> http://homepage.mac.com/
> http://homepage.mac.com/
> http://homepage.mac.com/
> http://homepage.mac.com/
> http://homepage.mac.com/
>
Pretty please?
ciao,
Ben Kamenjas Sydney, Oztralia
Alan Goldsworthy wrote
> Searched the archives and Googled the name, and have found next to zip
> about the Italian framebuilder Luigi Montagner. I see one catalog page
> from an importer (Wm. Lewis?) showing some off-topic (I think)
> modern-ish examples built with Oria tubing, one crimped tubeset and
> one fluted.
> But I have purchased a frame and fork from (hold on!) an eBay auction
> and it's a very conventional 55cm x 55cm with Campy ends, a sloping
> internal style forkcrown, Cinelli BB shell and internal top cable
> routing. It's probably been resprayed, but looks to be a very
> professional job, all paint except for the chrome surfaces of the
> ends, nicely masked off. No decals or stickers or any evidence of
> them. "LM" engraving on the fork crown and "MONTAGNER" engraved on the
> bottom of the BB shell.
> No sign of rifling in the steerer...any info as to the tubing used?
> What distinguished Oria from Columbus from Dedacchai?
> Any other info on Luigi Montagner will be appreciated. I read that he
> supplied the Czech and Polish teams at some point, but that's about
> all I found...I think Ben Kamen/Kamenjas in Aussieland may have owned
> one or two... any historical info, Ben?