Re: [CR]Re: Luigi Montagner heraldry ........ & ....... Save me andDonald Gillies from coming to blows (shameful)

(Example: Racing:Beryl Burton)

From: "ternst" <>
To: "Ben Kamenjas" <>, <>
References: <> <>
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Luigi Montagner heraldry ........ & ....... Save me andDonald Gillies from coming to blows (shameful)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:56:55 -0800
cc: Mr Donald W Gillies <>

Hey Ben: How about a King Zog cycling anecdote. Ted Ernst. Palos Verdes Est. Ca

----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Kamenjas
Cc: Mr Donald W Gillies
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 7:00 PM
Subject: [CR]Re: Luigi Montagner heraldry ........ & ....... Save me

andDonald Gillies from coming to blows (shameful)

> hey Alan & List(less)ers,
> I thought for a moment Dale changed his name to Craig (just eff-ing wit
> youse). 'Suppwiddatt?
> Montagner. I like 'em. I had one and bought another one for a friend.
> The one I had was similar to the catalogue scan on that legend Bulgier's
> site. Tubing was oria with very slight longitudional ribs, barely visible
> (which is nice) and 80's paint style that just might now be vogue in
> Tirana, Albania .... (hey I been there .... long story). It had Gippieme
> ends which if I may be so bold to say where the same as Campy were buying
> and having stamped with their digits and lotsa nice chrome with a very
> nice sloping Cinelli-esque crown and beefy bottom bracket. I later learnt
> it was all chrome beneath and was planning to let it shine but then
> thought it better to leave it intact as there weren't many about and sold
> it off for smaller coin than the bike should merit .... but we have all
> been in that place with many a bike.
> Impressions - I loved the ride and thought it just right in terms of
> liveliness and alacrity. If I had to choose the best ride qualities of
> one bike this would be it but this is a subjective thing and I agree that
> rider weight, wheels and tires have a lot to do with this. Seemed pretty
> light to me but I never weighed anything back then unless it was a
> controlled substance. Perhaps on par with SL, maybe lighter. Took a 26.4mm
> seat post and had a decal on the top tube espousing the W/Record time for
> the 4km team time trial by Czech national team at the World Championships
> in Colorado Springs in 1984(?). I didn't know the 4km TTT was such a
> prestigious event but the backing of the decal had the 'isssimo or Gay
> Pride stripes. Decals were black and with no clear coat (ala Pinarello)
> both them and the paint did heir best to seek freedom. Panto'd frok crown,
> seat stay ends and bottom bracket. Braze ons for shifters, BB cable guides
> underneath, rh chainstay cable stop and top tube brake cable loops. Kinda
> inauspicious head tube decal for an Italian Bici. I would have said about
> 1985.
> Roll on a few years (ed. - rehab?) - A mate was itching for a Italian bike
> like I had found for others. I landed him a sweet Montagner with a mix of
> Victory, Shimano 600, Cinelli and nice campy rims for $250 and that
> included shipping. This one looked a little later .... and if guessing I'd
> say ca. 1987 going by parts and je nais se quois stuff. I'm pretty sure
> it had SLX tubing (maybe SL) and it had improved paint style and quality
> but only slightly, still with fade's but now with that Lattice style
> criss-cross segue or transition from a dark red to silver. Nice looking
> frame, well executed and finished and the imperative God Bless Chrome that
> still afflicts my heart and tastes. This bike had been ridden very little
> and I only took it out for a perfunctory spin to make sure my mate
> wouldn't end up in hospital but it seemed Luigi knew what he was doing and
> again he produced a bike with life and all the qualities one would expect
> of a tool built for racing with. Confirmed what I first thought - these
> are very nice bikes and perhaps we all buy into the hype of the glamour
> bikes with higher profiles too much.
> There was a guy on this list whose name I cannot recall, but he was at the
> World Championships in Colorado Springs back in the 80's. In fact his
> mother was the host for the Czech team and he got to meet all the riders,
> check all their bikes and has photo's and fond memories of the time.
> Perhaps he may now writing his much awaited memoirs titled "The Full
> Montagner". In any case, said "guy" if you are reading this I am sorry I
> have forgotten perhaps the most important part of our e-meeting - your
> name. If anyone could chime in on more details, you could.
> Oria tubing is (if I read correctly) sourced from Manesmann (just like
> Columbus?). And either they draw it to spec. or order it as such (I can
> hear the engineer types whose wives wish for some romance laughing hard
> now). It was cheaper than say Columbus SL and made it's way onto quite a
> few bikes where a cheaper price point was an issue. Same as we see nicely
> finished bikes with great paint and chrome but with Aelle tubing and
> wonder Why the pomp and ceremony, but in reality a nicely made and
> finished bike with "lesser or cheaper" tubing was one way to impress for
> less from a buyer's perspective and in my experience didn't make much of a
> difference or in fact produced a pleasing and perhaps longer lasting
> result. BTW Oria tubing decals are ugly (if they ever remained).
> So, that's about all I know of Montagner and Oria. I'm pretty sure I might
> have a few pics of my frame and my mates bike somewhere on my hard drive.
> I can't recall where or what I filed them under but when I went looking I
> got sidetracked with a long forgotten file containing my prior ambitions
> to be a staff photographer for Wicked Weasel. Anyway, e-me and i'll send
> you the pics .... of the Montagner's that is ;)
> PART DEUX - the sorry part :(
> I beseach you wise cats and knowledgeable types to perhaps throw some
> light on a frame I had asked about here in trying to identify it. Alas,
> the kind soul he probably is, Donald Gillies was the only man (I use that
> term implicitly) to come forth with some musings and slight conjecture.
> Like 2 souls lost in a leaky boat amongst an ocean of freighters
> containing that M word & some Single's Chat Zone in 'frisco zipping past
> us, we are now seething at each other and well meaning discussion has
> progressed to what would be violence if we weren't seperated by a not
> inconsiderable ocean and cable that connects us is being tapped by the CIA
> to accumulate evidence as to why/what for Kamen became Kamenjas .... It's
> Ok - i'd been wanting an all expenses paid Carribean Holiday. But, I
> digress .....
> The now sharp and pointed bone of contention between me and Don's is the
> unusual to us both roller wheel guides for derailleur cable routing brazed
> to the frame's BB. Donald hypothesized that perhaps the frame I adore
> started life as a three speed SA affair, and perhaps the second roller was
> brazed on if the bike was up-specced(?) to a new life as a 10 speed. He
> contends that many a fine tubed and lugged example of SA equipped bike has
> a similar roller for shifter cable routing. I, being a TV baby and
> insecure about my knowledge of older style bikes and appreciation of
> Sturmey Archer (P. Kohler hates me now too), took that as an spiteful
> attack bringing accusations of bastardry to my erstwhile beautiful english
> style frameset without history or recognizable provenance. I'm sick, huh?
> Yes Im tetchy, but what do I do when the in the dark quiet hours of the
> morning I hear the frame weeping "where do I come from?" and suffer the
> guilt of not being able to soothe and bring answers to the troubled steel.
> I should have been in praise of Donald's effort to respond to my
> questions and end my suffering of not knowing where my frame came from but
> like a cat backed against a wall I vociferously countered that the the
> campy dropouts with derailleur tab seemed original and that it was unlike
> the local brazers and builders here (who usually fell into that employ
> after their preferred vocation of becoming a butcher or sheep shearer
> failed to transpire) would not have matched, finished and executed the
> change so gracefully or saw the point in terms of time and money when a
> new frame could be bought for less. I figure this frame is from O/seas,
> probably Eng-erland and with Nervex Pro lugs, svelte seat stays, what is
> to me quite light tubing (531?), it is a good bet. Local frames were very
> nice, and far cheaper than anything imported during that era but from
> asking around here the general consensus is that with imported frames
> being so costly it was only the high end, full derailleured bikes that
> made it over and worthwhile.
> Yes, it's a shame to bring the news of Don's and mine's bad blood here but
> I apportion blame and hold all of ye accountable for not coming forward
> with regard to this frameset in the first place. I know that Donald is a
> gentleman and most helpful but perhaps he failed to appreciate that I
> never said I was without flaw and still remain one of God's children.
> Perhaps Donald also never knew that I was bigger than him, much uglier and
> afraid of nothing save for an empty fridge the fact that Angelina Jolie
> must have misplaced my tel #. Yes it's childish ......... but He started
> it!
> C'mon cool cats, lead us into brotherhood again and weigh in my bit of
> steel so that I don't change religions and issue a Fatwa on all 'yer asses
> in this time of conviviality and season of festivities. Oh, and I promise
> the frame won't be on Ebay or Craigslist within a week ;) ... I also
> promise not to write so much crap again.
> aforementioned frame details and pics;
>> what is this bike?
>> Curio # 2 is a frame I have asked everyone local here about and nobody
>> has any firm clues to whose it may be. Most think it came from the UK
>> ...... Nervex Pro Lugs, 65 S 47 stamped on the BB and fork steerer,
>> roller guides for derailleur cable routing on the BB shell, pencil stays
>> and a seat stay caps that are svelte. I don't think paint is original.
>> Only other braze-ons apart from the roller guides is brake cable
>> stops/guides on the top tube (2), lower right side and the cable stop on
>> the right rear chainstay. Also, very slight bulge on the front of
>> headtube right underneath the top lug - how would that happen when all
>> else is straight, fork is original and steerer is without mar, and it
>> sits below where the headset cup stops? No cracks, no dimples, no dents
>> anywhere else. Or am I seeing things? Nice frame and I'm curious to find
>> out what it may be. At first glance I thought it was a Raleigh
>> International but it differs from any I have seen, and isn't. English
>> threading, graceful fork curve, campy dropouts, 43.5 cm stays (to centre
>> of rear drop out), seat tube diameter for a 27mm post, very light .....
>> what say ye?
> Pretty please?
> ciao,
> Ben Kamenjas
> Sydney, Oztralia
> Alan Goldsworthy wrote
>> Searched the archives and Googled the name, and have found next to zip
>> about the Italian framebuilder Luigi Montagner. I see one catalog page
>> from an importer (Wm. Lewis?) showing some off-topic (I think) modern-ish
>> examples built with Oria tubing, one crimped tubeset and one fluted.
>> But I have purchased a frame and fork from (hold on!) an eBay auction and
>> it's a very conventional 55cm x 55cm with Campy ends, a sloping internal
>> style forkcrown, Cinelli BB shell and internal top cable routing. It's
>> probably been resprayed, but looks to be a very professional job, all
>> paint except for the chrome surfaces of the ends, nicely masked off. No
>> decals or stickers or any evidence of them. "LM" engraving on the fork
>> crown and "MONTAGNER" engraved on the bottom of the BB shell.
>> No sign of rifling in the steerer...any info as to the tubing used? What
>> distinguished Oria from Columbus from Dedacchai?
>> Any other info on Luigi Montagner will be appreciated. I read that he
>> supplied the Czech and Polish teams at some point, but that's about all I
>> found...I think Ben Kamen/Kamenjas in Aussieland may have owned one or
>> two... any historical info, Ben?